between-cumbercapaldi asked

I need to understand what does the 'i forgive you' mean. Help me why in S2 Hannibal said that to Will and in S3 Will said that to Hannibal, and why after that there is a murder or they kill something dear for them... You know what I mean?

v-e-l-v-e-t-g-o-l-d-m-i-n-e

I think there’s more than one way to interpret it, especially because the show is very ambiguous and because ‘forgiveness’ is a loaded word in Hannibal, and to better grasp its meaning in these scene I think it’s worth paying attention to the other quotes about forgiveness said in the show, especially within Mizumono and Secondo.

“Forgiveness is such a profound, conscious and unconscious state of affairs. You can’t actually choose to do it. It simply happens to you.” - Bella Crawford in Mizumono

Will: If I confess to Jack Crawford right now…
Hannibal: I would forgive you. If Jack were to tell you all is forgiven, would you accept his forgiveness?
Will: Jack isn’t offering forgiveness. He wants justice. He wants to see you, see who you are. See what I’ve become. He wants the truth. - Will and Hannibal, Mizumono

“Fate and circumstance have returned us to this moment when the teacup shatters. I forgive you, Will. Will you forgive me?” - Hannibal, Mizumono

“Hannibal… I forgive you.”- Will, Primavera

Hannibal: He said he forgave me.
Bedelia: Forgiveness is too great and difficult for one person. It requires two: the betrayer and the betrayed. Which one are you?
Hannibal: I’m vague on those details.
Bedelia: Betrayal and forgiveness are best seen as something akin to falling in love. Hannibal: You cannot control with respect to whom you fall in love. - Hannibal and Bedelia, Secondo

Bedelia: What your sister made you feel was beyond your conscious ability to control or predict.
Hannibal: Or negotiate.
Bedelia: I would suggest what Will Graham makes you feel is not dissimilar. A force of mind and circumstance.
Hannibal: Love. He pays you a visit or he doesn’t.
Bedelia: Same with forgiveness. And I would argue, the same with betrayal.
Hannibal:The god Betrayal. Who presupposes the god Forgiveness.
Bedelia:  We can all betray. Sometimes we have no other choice.
Hannibal: Mischa didn’t betray me. She influenced me to betray myself, but I forgave her that influence.
Bedelia: If past behavior is an indicator of future behavior, there is only one way you will forgive Will Graham.
Hannibal: I have to eat him.- Bedelia and Hannibal, Secondo

Mason: I want you to understand, Dr. Bloom, that this is not a revenge thing. I have forgiven Dr. Lecter as Our Saviour forgave the Roman soldiers.
Alana: Forgiveness isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, Mr. Verger. I don’t need religion to appreciate the idea of Old Testament revenge. - Alana and Mason, Aperitivo

Will: I’m curious whether either of us can survive separation.
Hannibal: Now is the hardest test: not letting rage and frustration nor forgiveness keep you from thinking. - Hannibal and Will, Dolce

“You dropped your forgiveness, Will. You forgive how God forgives.” - Hannibal, Dolce

As you can see, it’s a word used very often in the show, with meanings that go way, way beyond the textbook definition of forgiveness as a word. Alana is the only one who sees forgiveness in a more traditional meaning, but for everyone else it seems to mean so much more. 

Forgiveness is a profound, conscious and unconscious state of affairs that you’re unable to do on your own - it happens or it doesn’t to you. Forgiveness (and betrayal) is best seen as something akin to falling in love. Forgiveness is a force of mind and circumstance beyond your control and capacity of negotiation. Forgiveness it’s a god, surpassed by another god, Betrayal. Forgiveness is something that can keep you from thinking, just like rage and frustration.

What does all of this means to Hannibal and Will?

An awful lot of things, to be honest, but what stands out the most for me is that often in the text, is compared that forgiveness = love, especially in Hannibal and Will’s case.

There’s a spark between Hannibal and Will since they first met; Hannibal was fascinated by Will as soon as they met, and it didn’t take too long for Will to feel the same. Mads Mikkelsen once said that Hannibal fell in love with Will at first sight, and I think this interpretation falls in line with this line of thought that forgiveness = love; Hannibal didn’t choose to fall in love with Will, it simple happened. A force of mind of circumstance.

It’s the same with forgiving Will.

In Mizumono, Hannibal discover early on in the episode that Will was lying to him and felt the weight of that betrayal, but you know what else happens? He forgives Will almost immediately.

In their last dinner, when talking about imagos and idealized, nonexistent versions of themseves. Hannibal is subdued in this scene; he even admits that they both are too curious about too many things for any ideals. He insists with Will that he doesn’t need a sacrifice in Jack’s shape - that if they could disappear that night, together, everything would be forgiven. He straight up tells Will “I would forgive you”.

Because forgiveness had already happened to Hannibal by then.

Now coming back to your original question: what all the ‘I forgive you(s)’ means for them if someone is usually getting stabbed (or almost getting stabbed) when such words are being said?

It sort of means something like that old saying, that just because you can forgive someone, doesn’t mean you forget what they have done.

Hannibal doesn’t fancy himself a man. He fancies himself a God, something that is heavily emphatized in the show’s cinematography. He is a dark Wendigo entity; he’s the cannibal god of collapsed rooftop churches. When Hannibal was eating Gideon’s leg, he said it wasn’t cannibalism between them, because cannibalism can only happens between equals and alas, equals they were not, because for me, Hannibal sees himself apart of humanity, superior to everyone else - a fallen angel, as Mads Mikkelsen so cleverly once said.

If Hannibal sees himself as a god,  that means he also forgives like a god. And Hannibal doesn’t see god as a good entity; he sees god as indifferent at best, wicked at worst, a god who allowed his innocent baby sister to suffer a gruesome and painful death, a terrific entity who feels powerful about causing the death of its faithful worshippers.

For me that means that Hannibal can genuinely forgive Will and stab him in the same sentence, because forgiveness, like love, simple happened to him, beyond his control - he didn’t choose to love or forgive Will, but he did. But Hannibal likes control, and likes to feel powerful, and while he can’t choose how he feels about Will’s betrayal, he can and he will choose how to respond and he chooses to respond with a violence he’s terrible familiar with - by taking away someone that Will dearly loves as a punishment for Will betraying him AND not accepting the second chance he gave to him (the whole ‘I would forgive you’ scene) because that’s what rageful gods do - they cause destructive storms and leave chaos behind.

And the same thing is valid for Will, because unlike everyone else, Hannibal doesn’t see Will as a being beneath him - he sees Will as some sort of equal to his own perceptions of himself.

Will is betrayed by Hannibal several, several times in the show - and he forgives him every single time. It may not seen this way at first because of attemped murders and everything in between, but he does - in early season two, Will was utterly heartbroken about Hannibal betraying him.

I don’t know which is worse. Believing I did it or believing that you did it and did this to me.

Will doesn’t know what it’s worse - believing he is a cannibal serial murderer, or believing that Hannibal is a cannibal serial murderer that set him up like he did. The idea of Hannibal betraying him like that is as horrible as the idea of Will being a serial murderer himself - that’s how much Hannibal’s betrayal affects him.

But Will forgives him - he forgives him so much that repeatedly, deliberately refuses to move on his plan with Jack for ages in season two. He had a golden chance to arrest Hannibal for what he did with Mason in Tome Wan, and he does absolutely nothing. He had a chance of letting Jack and Hannibal resolve things in their own but he calls Hannibal and tells him they know so Hannibal can just. Get away and not get arrested because Will forgives Hannibal so much that he actually wants Hannibal to run away and he also wants to run away with Hannibal.

Will forgives Hannibal so often. He forgives him even as Hannibal stabs him, he forgives him even as he bleeds all over Hannibal’s kitchen floor. He forgives him even in his hospital bed, when his conciousness takes the shape of Abigail to recriminate him for not telling Hannibal the truth. He loves and forgives Hannibal so much he fucking builds a boat and sails to Italy to chase Hannibal’s footsteps.

But despite his protests and despite appearing to have a more normal vision of life, Will also forgives like a vengeful god, just like Hannibal. He loves and forgives Hannibal and so they can have that beautiful, heartbreaking reunion full of softness and love in front of Primavera and five minutes later Will can try to stab Hannibal and everything is still genuine; he wants to answer and grant Hannibal forgiveness the same way Hannibal gave it to him - with the sharp bite of a blade, because retribution is very important for both of them and that’s what vengeful gods do.

(I’m sorry this got so long and I hope I didn’t just babbled and actually helped you in some way! Also, I’m putting this ask in the tags, in case anyone wants to add their thoughts)